This is part 1 of my reply to Mark Baxter who has embarked to some degree along the lines of the Insider Movement/Kingdom Circles" movement. Mark replied to my response to his email sent out called "Jesus plus nothing" and this is my reply to him. I will use quotes for his words and my response follows underneath. This is part one of two in my response to his full email to me.
"Geoff,
Having returned now from China and having just completed a week of teaching in our School of Evangelism, I finally have time to respond to your email and emails from others who responded to my newsletter weeks ago. Sorry for such a tardy reply. I really appreciated reading your message. I have been reading a lot of material on the subject referred to as “Kingdom circles” or the “Insider movement” since my experience in Saudi. I know people on both sides of the issue who sincerely love Jesus and want to take His Good News to the world. In essence, the disagreement comes down to this: Can a person who considers himself a Muslim or Jew be saved and continue in their present religion? Those who are part of the “Insider movement” seem to propose that the answer to this is yes. Others, who lean more toward the “Kingdom circles”, seem to propose that these people can be saved but will move out of their present religion."
Thank you for taking the time to make a full reply to me. I will post both your reply and my response to my blogsite and Facebook page. I spent some time reading some of what could be found on the internet as to the two subjects called “Kingdom circles” and the “Insider Movement.” One such individual who falls within this camp is Carl Medearis. I found others also, and one observation I can see is that there isn’t much of a definition for these movements. They appear relatively small and limited in their impact upon the churches of God.
I say this because I have only made a casual observation of what these folks teach and do, but more particularly have focused on your reply to me. What I have learned from their websites and blogs is that these men and teachers are in deep error. Mr. Medearis, for example, does not write or teach theologically or biblically. In fact, he is dismissive of doctrine and theology. (Let the reader use biblegateway.com or some other Bible search tool and use the key word “doctrine.” Using the standard KJV of the Bible, you will find that it appears 55 times in the Bible and the ONLY time doctrine is ill spoken of is when it is false doctrine).
Medearis also presents a false dichotomy found on his blogsite where he claims to “..follow Jesus, not Paul.” He further writes, “Paul’s a great guy. Wrote some good Scripture. Planted some churches, but he too, followed Christ. I think the Western church is in love with Paul, not Jesus.” http://www.carlmedearis.com/blog/2010/07/are-you-evangelical-in-your-theology-and-missiology-%c2%a0i-never-hear-you-use-words-that-my-other-evangelical-friends-use-and-you-always-sound-a-bit-fuzzy-%e2%80%93-almost-like-a-universalist-or-som/
I have seen this type of attitude before within the Charismatic/Prophetic movement (Medearis is relationally involved with the Vineyard churches according to his website). Aside from such a statement regarding Paul by Medearis being grossly arrogant, it is unbiblical. And that brings me to my point: It really doesn’t matter what Mr. Medearis thinks, or what the Kingdom Circle folks believe, nor the Insider Movement. What matters is “What saith the Scripture.”
My reply to you is not intended to try to change your mind (yet hopeful that I might change your mind). Your reply shows me that you have already made up your mind. My hope is that my response to you will serve as an example to others that we ought to biblically test all things by the Scriptures. This includes what it is we are going to say we believe and how we are going to practice our faith. I am really surprised (perhaps I should not be) that men such as this Medearis decry against sound doctrine and theology. When I was involved with the Vineyard movement and Prophetic movement I saw this also. It surprises me because if there is indeed an issue with the Christian churches in America then it is first a theological one, and then a practical one. What the American churches need is not some parachurch missionary on the outside of the everyday lives of Americans pointing at them and telling them they are wrong. What they need are well-trained men who are theological giants with a Shepherd’s heart to feed the flock of God. The theology must always be first, then the practice.
With that introduction, let us move on to addressing biblically some of your statements and questions. You posed the question: “Can a person who considers himself a Muslim or Jew be saved and continue in their present religion?”
Let us not, for the moment, concern ourselves with how the movements answer this question. Let us concern ourselves with the Scripture. Let’s seek the answer to this question from the mouth of God Himself in Holy Scripture. The question again is: Can a person who is (as a man thinks in his heart, so is he…so if he considers himself a Muslim or Jew, he is) a Muslim or Jew be saved and at the same time continue in their present religion?
Thus saith the Lord, “Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? Or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? For ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, said the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.” 2 Cor 6:14-18; 7:1
There are several things that may be observed from this text:
First: The nature of this passage is between the believer in Christ Jesus, and the unbelieving world. Some have supposed that it is regarding or applied to marriage and perhaps some restrict the meaning to this. This is an erroneous application for two main reasons: 1) That there is nothing in the context of the passage itself or in the entire epistle of 2 Corinthians. 2) The Apostle did deal with the marriage issue in 1 Corinthians in which it was admonished by Paul that if a married individual had an unbelieving spouse and that spouse be content to stay with the believer, let not the believer put away the spouse. 1 Cor 7:12-13. It is clear then that 2 Cor 6 cannot be applied to marriage only (though it might be wise for a believer not to marry an unbeliever) but is applied and directed to the Christian and his relationship with the world around him.
Second: God is commanding His covenant people to come out from among “them.” Who is ‘ them?’ It is exactly who was described in verses 14-16. God is commanding His people to separate themselves from the unrighteous, those in darkness, infidels (unbelievers), Belial (homosexuals), and idolaters.
To add a point of clarification, what is not being taught here is the teaching that we are not to keep company with such people or have any kind of relationship or interaction with unbelievers. To suggest this would be in direct conflict with 1 Corinthians 5:9-11. There the Apostle explains that his instruction in not keeping company with fornicators, covetous, extortioners, or idolaters was with regard one that is named a believer. To not keep company, or be in the company, of all such wicked persons would mean we would need to go out of the world. What the Lord is teaching us in 2 Cor 6:14-18; 7:1 is that we are not to participate in the practices and behaviors and ways of the unregenerate people of the world. The Scripture declares the reason for this saying that Christians are the very temple of the living God wherein He dwells in them and walks in them. “Wherefore” God says…this is to say, for this very reason…for the reason that ye are the temple of God, for the reason that God dwells in you all and walks in you all, because of this…come out from among them and be ye separate. God says to get out from among them and separate yourself from them and do not even touch the unclean thing…and I will receive you…and be a Father to you and you will be my sons and daughters.
There is no question that these exhortations spring from the Old Covenant Scriptures. In Korah’s rebellion against God the Lord commanded Moses and those who stood with him to separate themselves from the congregation and were commanded to depart from the tabernacle of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram. The Scripture says in Numbers 16:26 “And he spake unto the congregation, saying, Depart, I pray you, from the tents of these wicked men, and touch nothing of theirs, lest ye be consumed in all their sins.”
In verse 21 of the same chapter they are commanded to separate themselves and here in verse 26 they are commanded to not even touch anything that belonged to these rebellious people “..lest ye be consumed in all their sins.” Such separation was commanded by God and practiced by an obedient people. In Ezra 6:21 we learn that the children of Israel “..had separated themselves…from the filthiness of the heathen of the land, to seek the Lord God of Israel..” There is a clear parallel with Chapter 7 and verse 1 of Corinthians where the Holy Spirit says, “Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting the holiness in the fear of God.” We should also take note of Revelation 18:4 which says, “And I heard another voice from heaven saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.”
There is indeed a biblical separation commanded by God in Holy Scripture for Christians. It is clear from both the OT and NT Scriptures that God is calling us to come out and be separate so that we are not a partaker in the sins of the wicked and of the plagues and judgments which are coming against them.
It is also important to note here that not only does God command us to separate ourselves from something but is calling us to something. He is commanding us to come out and separate ourselves from wickedness and the unbelievers, and is calling us to Himself where He “..will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.”
It should now be clear as to the answer to our question, “Can a person who considers himself a Muslim or Jew be saved and continue in their present religion?” Biblically the answer is no, not if that person is truly saved. If that person is truly saved then they are called out of their false religions be they Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Atheist, or Religionist. They are called out and brought to the living God where they are gathered together as the temple of God, the Church of Jesus Christ, the Bride of Christ.
Mark wrote, "One of the main issues is something that commonly produces conflict among Christians. That issue is the concept of process. For example, when a Roman Catholic comes into a relationship with the living God, will they remain a Roman Catholic for the rest of their lives. I don’t think so, but how long will the process be of coming out? It could be immediate, a month, or even years. The process varies according to many factors. I believe that most people who call themselves Christians, along with those who are Mormons, Roman Catholics, Muslims, Hindus, Jews, Buddhists, are all equally and thoroughly lost and headed to hell. The fact that God could reach down in His radical grace and save people while in these conditions is a demonstration of His power. Will those who are saved change? Absolutely. If not, I don’t believe the living God choose them and saved them. When will they change? That is up to God and in many cases is dependent on discipleship."
If God reaches down and by His grace saves people within the religions of Islam or Judaism other than through the normal means of preaching the Gospel to them by some mediation, then praise be to God. This, of course, is the exception and not the rule. When God chose to save the Ethiopian eunuch He sent Philip to go and preach Jesus to him from the Scriptures. Acts 8:26-40. God has ordinarily ordained that it is by preaching to save them that believe. “For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.” 1 Cor 1:21
But your question here relates to when and not how they will change. Again, let the Scriptures answer our questions. What we are touching on here is the very nature of salvation. And no wonder that our adversary would seek to bring confusion and division over this. But consider, “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover, whom he did predestinate, them also he called: and whom he called, them he also justified, and whom he justified, them he also glorified.”
God’s salvation is complete from the beginning to the end. The grace of God is not just for regeneration, but also sanctification and glorification. “For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present world; looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and Savior Jesus Christ.” Titus 2:11-13 And, “But after that the kindness and love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration , and renewing of the Holy Ghost; which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour.” Titus 3:4-5
God’s salvation of sinners is full and complete. When He regenerates someone, he himself washes them. It is unbiblical to say that the grace of God saves a man, but does not sanctify them or to say that their sanctification is dependent upon discipleship. Salvation from beginning to end is all of grace. If a man has the grace of God, then God will teach that man to deny ungodliness. The grace of God will teach the Christian how he or she ought to live in this present world. Now we do recognize and acknowledge that it is most often by the means of the teaching ministry of the Church that this work is accomplished. It is within the Church of Jesus Christ that believers are built up in Him. God Himself has ordained the Church and gifted His church first with apostles, then prophets, and now pastors and teachers for the perfecting of the saints.
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